Does “numbers” suggest what is right? Guess Joel Osteen is teaching truth then, huh? Do not think even Dan would agree to “numbers” proof.

My experiences are difference between Image and Reality. Do people Live what their Image is? Many actors have a public image that is exactly opposite of their private life. Public officials “say anything” to get elected and then proceed to vote contrary policies. How many times are we shocked to learn about a secret side of a respected person of the community?

Of course everyone sins, but leadership is held to higher standards since they are what the congregation and people outside the church look to for an example of Christian behavior. Dan placed many people in disfellowship, lied about them, discredited them, in Hudsonville, and Five Points–innocent people (elders went back to these people to reconcile with them after Dan left). This was a blatant abuse of his position and power.

Those who call themselves Christians must hold leadership accountable, be aware that there are many who know how to spiritually manipulate, and realize that all are capable of committing *any* sin. Wisdom is gained through such knowledge.

So–Dan. Let me state this right out: I’m not questioning his salvation. In fact, I’d be seriously shocked if he’s not in Heaven. I do have several major issues with his theology, but on the other hand, I don’t exactly think that taking the incorrect stance on predestination is going to make or break a person’s salvation.

I should also clarify the cancer comment. I can’t speak for Nance, but personally, I have no idea if his cancer was God’s judgment. That’s God’s business. (I’ll comment on some of Nance’s justifications for her belief in a minute.) But if some of my comments in the post itself were taken as a belief in divine retribution, well, I had no intention of going there at all. My plan was actually to expand on some thoughts on the theology of prayer. Was Pastor Elliott spared because he asked for healing? Did Pastor Dan pass away because he didn’t specifically? That’s still a blog post that I may or may not actually write.

As for his impact on Five Points, well, Dan was a human, and as such, he would be the first to confess his sinful nature. He was also a leader, which means that any sins he committed had a broader (or at least more visible) impact than the average churchgoer. And my understanding is that Dan did, in fact, commit some sins in his role of leading the church. They weren’t of such a nature that Dan needed to be removed from leadership (or at least, that’s not the path that was taken), but they were of the sort that many members of the church LEADERSHIP felt it necessary to leave.

These were not “flavor of the week” issues. You expect some turnover in church membership when new leadership enters. It’s natural. But take my parents, for example. Dad helped run the sound booth. Mom sang in the choir, then the praise team (I joined her up there when I was a bit older). Mom taught Sunday School and ran VBS for the fourth graders. Mom was a deaconess. Dad was a deacon. We were active in serving the church, and remain active in serving our respective churches. We also stuck with Five Points for a year after Dan became pastor, and left in as graceful a manner as possible. (I suspect this blog post ten years after the fact is raising more controversy than our actual departure.) The thing is, a lot of the people who left were just like Mom and Dad. Deacons and deaconesses. Sunday school teachers. People who served in the church on a regular basis. Heck, some of the founders of the church left, and traditionally they’ve put such an investment into the building itself that they’re the hardest to pull away. These were not the “shallow minded.” I’ve no doubt that some such people were among those who left, but a critical mass of those who did were not such people. Call me shallow-minded as much as you want–I freely admit, I was a pretty immature 16-year-old–but please find it possible that my parents spent a good amount of time prayerfully considering whether or not leaving actually *was* the wisest course of action.

Basically, I guess I’m simply asking you to consider that the situation at Hudsonville and the situation at Five Points were likely very different. If you consider my post and comments as a trivialization of the grief of those who mourn, I ask your forgiveness for my thoughtlessness. I certainly didn’t mean it that way.

That said, I didn’t always agree with everything he said, but he always encouraged me to read the Bible myself. As far as teachers go, he simply was the best. Pastor Steve, who took over for Pastor Dan, is not in the same boat. A nice guy sure, but he pales in comparison to Pastor Dan, it’s probably not fair to even compare the two. Steve just is a step down.

But back to the point I was trying to make, I think – after reading all your comments, you guys are nuts. You are the reason so many people are turned off from organized religion. You bicker as a Church, then you bicker some more with each other. Then you say a very serious disease like Cancer was placed on Dan because of sin?

Give me a break, are you so sinless that you can cast a stone? And as for Dan splitting your Church, that’s ridiculous too. At Grace we grew from 400 to 2400 under his leadership, along with Pastor Garys incredible music program. Gary left, the Church basically split in a “flavor of the month” kind of way, and Dan was instrumental in the churches survival. He was a real rock.

So I don’t really think the problem was with Dan, instead it was with you and your parents and your apparent “bleeding hearts.” Give me a break, this is the real world sister.

What you need to do is get over yourself. And I mean that in the most “christian” way.

A lot of people at Grace had issues with Dan, but they were always the shallow minded in my opinion. They found reasons not to like him, they didn’t think he was “overly friendly”, but I always thought “how friendly would you be to someone who was a constant pain the arse?”

Dan was a great man, the fact that people like Nance say they are “reformed” sums up her view. Get a life sister.

God Bless

Issue was not theology. I am reformed. Issue was covered sin by leadership. Think Dan’s illness was direct result of this cover-up. All but one elder involved in this cover-up is now no longer at Five Points. Expect to see last man removed soon too.

The prof I had for Early American Lit–not Ihrman; I don’t remember his name–talked about going to a Grand Rapids-area church one Easter Sunday and hearing a pastor who preached out of Jonathan Edwards. I can’t remember if I confirmed it or not, but I’m pretty sure it was Pastor Dan.

I have to admit, this made me chuckle.

“The Puritans didn’t die out, they just moved to Hudsonville.” Professor Ihrman

Nance,
Are you honestly going to sit there and accuse Dan & others…teaching calvinism of a sinful deed so great that God has to “remove” them one-by-one? If truly you call yourself a christian how can you sit there right after a fellow believer(whether they believe predestination or not) passed away and say such a horrible thing?